Lake Travis Fire Needs More Funding
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From My Fox Austin
The Lake Travis fire chief says his department needs more money to serve the area’s growing population. But getting that money would not be easy. Firefighters there say the popullation has grown so much that the money they have just isn’t cutting it.
Last week firefighters with Lake Travis Fire Rescue were called to the scene of a two-alarm house fire in Steiner Ranch. Luckily the family got outside OK, but had that not been the case, there may have been trouble. The first engine there only had three firefighters, and Lake Travis Fire Rescue follows the state law that four firefighters are required to be on scene to go into a burning building.
Chief Jim Linardos says he’s operating under budget constraints.
Lake Travis is an Emergency Services District which runs differently from a city fire department and gets less money from the state. But as the Lake Travis area expands, the budget they have just isn’t cutting it.
“The population has grown so much that we’re in an area where people believe they deserve city-type service,” Linardos said. “That’s what we’re trying to give them, is what people want. We just can’t do that with the revenue we’re receiving.”
Chief Linardos has gone to Texas legislators about the issue more than once.
Even if they did approve raising the revenue given to the ESD, it would have to go to election first.
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hey guy your an ESD not austin, get you a few volunteer’s that are worth a dang, train them up to standard and there you go… 4th man, no need for more money and no new taxes. over 70% of the country operates this way and im sure you can too.
The staffing is unsafe and the ESD needs to adress it. But the story is a little missleading as when there is immediate Rescue the 2 in 2 out is by passed……………… The 3 Firefighters could start search and rescue. Yes it way more hazardous to the Firefighters and has to be adressed, also not as efficient a search, but it can be done………
2 IN 2 OUT RULE IS AN OSHA MANDATE. THE STATE OF TEXAS IS NOT AN OSHA STATE. PRIVATE SECTOR FIRE COMPANIES HAVE TO FOLLOW THIS MANDATE BUT MUNICIPAL DEPARTMENTS DO NOT. MOST LARGE DEPARTMENTS FOLLOW THIS MANDATE AS PER SOP’S BUT THEY ALSO HAVE 4 MAN ENGINE COMPANIES WITH A FULL ALARM ROLLING IN. I COME FROM A SMALL MUNICIPAL DEPT. THAT TRAINS HARD DUE TO MAN POWER SHORTAGES. AT TIMES WE HAVE TO “COWBOY UP” AND GO IN. IN MY OPINION, SOME ESD DEPTS. WITH A LARGE BUDGET BLOW IT ON EQUIPMENT(ALOT OF THE BEST OF THE BEST) TO COMPETE IN THE “SWINGING WOOD CONTEST” INSTEAD OF ADDING STAFF. ALL THAT AWESOME EQUIPMENT TO RUN 1200 CALLS A YEAR AFTER PADDING A COUPLE HERE OR THERE.
Well, where should I begin……….You say that your department needs more money, to provide “BIG CITY” services such as a fourth man. The sad thing is, you must not visit many “BIG CITY” services to get your facts. A lot of large cities run a three man engine company as well as three man truck companies. This is not something new to departments that have a budget restraint or financial obligations other then man-power. I’m sure even the fire departments in your area have a three man company, unless, the union is involved. But I’m sure if you brought up the topics of Selective service as well as the “LITTLE” organization such as the IAFF…( International Association of Fire Fighters, for all you non union guys) I’m sure your citiziens and tax payers would love to read all about. That is how most of those “BIG CITY” servies are brought into light. So, if you think you can’t perfrom because of smoke screen of man-power issues……well, you need to ride on the trucks in the towns and “SMALL CITIES” that are getting it done……..
That’s all I gotta say about that!!!!!!!
Yes Texas is a 2 in – 2 out State for paid personal per TCFP 435.17. As far as ESD’s there tax rate is top out at $ 0.10 per $ 100 evaluation. Even if the home owner what to go higher to better fund there department they can not per state law. You must cover all cost with that amount. As far as Lake Travis Fire Rescue there biggest problem is the area they cover is large with 5 stations. It takes a long time before the next do engine or quint will arrive. But even with only 3 personal you can preform rescue operations if you have reason to believe there is some tapped and you can safely get them out. But you can not preform interior firefighting. And yes you can add volunteers but as we all know that is very had to get people to commit the time need to be a good vol. And than there are the problem that come with having a combination department. Just be thankful that you have 5 stations with 3 man company’s you could be running with 2 man or less.
Texas Government Code 419.046 – Check out (d)
Sec. 419.046. FIRE PROTECTION PERSONNEL OPERATING AT EMERGENCY INCIDENTS. (a) A fire department shall develop, maintain, and use a standard operating procedure covering fire protection personnel operating at emergency incidents. The procedure shall specify an adequate number of personnel to safely conduct emergency scene operations. The procedure shall limit operations to those that can be safely performed by the personnel available at the scene.
(b) A fire department shall require all personnel to be trained in and to use the standard operating procedure pertaining to fire protection personnel operating at emergency incidents.
(c) The minimum standards established by the National Fire Protection Association or its successor for operating procedures for fire protection personnel operating at an emergency incident may be used as a guideline for fire departments when developing standard operating procedures.
(d) The standard operating procedures for structure fires shall comply with the Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s Final Rule, 29 C.F.R. Section 1910.134(g)(4), procedures for interior structural fire fighting of July 1, 1998.
If your ESD is maxed out at .10 per $100.00 property eval. What about the ESD sales tax you can have your ESD board put on the next election Ballot. I belive this can generate a good amount of money. I think the Pedernales Fire Department has benefited from that.
Get your info right…………… 2 in 2 out is not a OSHA Mandate. It is in NFPA and it was adopted into Law by the State of Texas….you must be a city manager tring to save money on the Firefighters back…crawl back into your hole….
My last post was directed at carlos!!!!!
Hey there Scott……….you must not be able to read!!!!! Even Fookey posted the code and the subsection you can look up for 2in-2out rule. But there is loop holes in everything, Especially if the federal or state goverment wrote it. All you have to say……there was unconfirmed reports of somebody that “MIGHT” be inside the structure. But hey…..it all comes down to the bottom line, and your a fool if you think you can deny that. And as far as the sales tax, for your ESD, your board has to initiate that. But even BOARD MEMBERS are politicians as well…..so unless you have your hand in the honey jar…….just watch out what you wish for……you keep asking for things, you might just get burned.
Hey there….just to add another two cents: Might want to read the story about Beaumont cutting overtime and dealing with manpower issues……..maybe you will understand what is happening across the country. At least the department in question, Lake Travis Fire, is not having to shut down fire stations.
Jay….I know what is happening accross the Nation. That is what makes me so made about this….every city manager wants to balance their budget on the backs of the Firefighters…… and yes I adressed the exception to the 2 in 2 out rule…… and yes OSHA may also have adressed this but it started in a NFPA code and it was adopted into law by the State of texas. Is it quit common for OSHA and NFPA to adress the same thing. If you look at NFPA 472 and OSHA 1910.162 for Hazmat response you will see that they are basically photo copies of each other…….
Jay….I know what is happening accross the Nation. That is what makes me so made about this….every city manager wants to balance their budget on the backs of the Firefighters…… and yes I adressed the exception to the 2 in 2 out rule…… and yes OSHA may also have adressed this but it started in a NFPA code and it was adopted into law by the State of texas. Is it quit common for OSHA and NFPA to adress the same thing. If you look at NFPA 472 and OSHA 1910.162 for Hazmat response you will see that they are basically photo copies of each other…….
Jay….I know what is happening accross the Nation. That is what makes me so made about this….every city manager wants to balance their budget on the backs of the Firefighters…… and yes I adressed the exception to the 2 in 2 out rule…… and yes OSHA may also have adressed this but it started in a NFPA code and it was adopted into law by the State of texas. Is it quit common for OSHA and NFPA to adress the same thing. If you look at NFPA 472 and OSHA 1910.120 for Hazmat response you will see that they are basically photo copies of each other…….
sorry about the multi post’s. had trouble with computer and didn’t think it went throught the first 2 times…..
If your ESD is maxed out at .10 per $100.00 property evauation. What about the ESD sales tax you can have your ESD board put on the next election Ballot. I belive this can generate a good amount of money. I think the Pedernales Fire Department has benefited from that.
Yes and ESD can have a sale tax but the state max is 8.25% with the state getting the first 6.25%. So if you cover a city that has a sales tax or even some county’s have sale tax. All of them can’t be over 2% plus the state 6.25%.
As far as 2 in 2 out we all have to work with what you have use good judgment. And we can all go home safe and to the best we can for the public.
Yes Joe we can all work with what we have and meet the 2 in 2 out rule…… It just helps if our governing bodies understand the risk the Firefighters are at with reduced staffing……… These same elected officals wouldn’t dare take a Cop off the streets, but Firefighters off a truck seems ok to them….. And before you’ll jump on me I am not advocating reduced Police manpower either…….. These jobs are juts as important…….. I am just saying that seems to be how elected officials look at it….
I’m a steiner ranch resident and also a fellow firefighter. I recall in the last election there was a vote that involved some added money for the ESD. I’m curious to know how that money is being spent. I notice a brand new pierce quint rolling through steiner ranch and a new engine rolling around the ESD. Is that what the money went towards? How old were the other rigs that were replaced? If we say each rig is 500k. How long would 1 million dollars employ a Lake Travis Firefighter on the older rigs giving you 4 man staffing?
MIKE…THAT ABOUT SAID IT ALL. YOU CAN NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT LOSING WHAT YOU NEVER HAD (THE 4TH). SOME DEPTS. HAVE ADEQUATE STAFFING WITH OLD EQUIPMENT. HMM OLD..WHAT IS OLD? OPEN CAB FMC’S.. 14 YR OLD CLASS A PUMPERS WITHOUT A/C. WIRE FRAME SCOTT PACKS. WHAT DOES INTERGRATED PASS MEAN? GRASS TRUCKS WITH 200K MILES. SOME GET THE PICTURE…..AM ALL ABOUT BROTHERHOOD WHEN IT COMES TO ANYTHING FOR A FELLOW FF. SO I FIGURE YOU….”MY FELLOW BROTHERS” NEED TO SPEAK UP TO THE “OLD MAN” AND TELL HIM YOU CAN DO WITHOUT SOME OF THE PERKS THAT COME ALONG WITH WORKING FOR A DEPT. THAT COMES FROM MONEY. I AM EMPLOYED BY A CITY WITH A BUDGET OF OVER 1 MILLION. NOT MUCH GREEN. 39 SOULS TOTAL INCLUDING ADMIN. 3000 PLUS CALLS AND DON’T PAD EM. OOHH I FORGOT…WE OPERATE OUR OWN MICU TRUCKS AND FIGHT FIRE OUT OF THEM. LIL OLD 2 STATION DEPT. WITH THE SAME COMPLAINT’S AS THE BIG KIDS BUT WE DON’T GO CRYING TO THE STATE WHEN WERE BEHIND THE 8 BALL AND SAVE A SLAB.
Mike, the apparatus that was replaced wasnt in need of replacement as much as the need reserve apparatus. There has been a few occasions where we had to use an Engine from Jollyville. The Engines that got replaced were going on 10 years, not a big deal but as maintenance on aging engines goes up we need to have reserves. The new money you are talking about is a sales tax on un-incorparted areas that are in our ESD. We haven’t received any of that money and I dont want to say what our Chief wants to do with it because I dont know. So no that is not where the money went. As far as four man staffing goes we have it when everybody is on shift. We need the coverage to fill sick, vacation, IOJ and training. I am glad to see that you are interested in whats going on with the FD that protects your family while you are away protecting others. I urge you to get involved and go visit with Chief Linardos, I know he welcomes input from the citizens that his department is responsible for. Our ESD is taking advantage of every dollar we have, and being better at what we do is priority one. You will be glad to know that every Engine company that is assigned to Station 605 (Steiner Ranch) has an Intermediate or Paramedic level of care available should you need it. (We are doing our best to get all Companies to ILS or above) One more thing, I wish I could calculate the amount of time one million dollars would employ an LTFR FF, but it would be shot in the dark.
Let’s assume that the new apparatus cost $500,000. It’s a nice round number.
Let’s also recognize that LTFR probably didn’t write a check for $500,000. You’re right, $500,000 would probably buy a lot of Firefighters this fiscal year, and if they had that kind of money sitting around, they’d probably have it next year too. However, I’m betting that LTFR does NOT have that kind of money just sitting around.
No, the most probably either borrowed the money for about 10 years, or lease/purchased the truck for about 10 years. That means that they probably paid somewhere around $60,000 per year ($500,000 divided by 10 years, plus interest…and I didn’t care enough to dig up a finance calculator online, and the exact number isn’t important).
So…how many Firefighters does $60,000 buy for Lake Travis Fire/Rescue? I’m betting not many. And if that truck actually cost LESS than $500,000, then they actually have LESS than $60,000 per year in it…which buys even fewer Firefighters.
Trucks are cheap. People are expensive.
Thanks for the info Sal. I’m not trying to take sides in this. As a firefighter I know how the budget thing can get. The bottom line is I want the fire department that’s responsible to cover my house when I’m away (or home for that matter) to be prepared. That’s probably the same mind set every firefighter in LTFR has. In the end we all want to be able to do our jobs. I’m glad to hear about the ILS or above on all apparatus. It isn’t rare for me to see you guys go by on a run and not see an ambulance for another 10-15 minutes (approximate numbers….I don’t keep track). I know it has to be difficult operating a fire department that has to cover bee caves, lakeway, steiner, and the surrounding area.
I see the situation with needing a reserve apparatus. I wouldn’t want to have to go to another department to borrow a rig.
Has there been any talk of a swing man that could cover stations that are down? If you have 4 firefighters that are assigned to an apparatus and one calls in sick/vacation/etc you’re down to 3. That way you would only have 5 assigned to 1 or 2 stations and they could swing where they are short. I’m assuming that was the case the morning you had the 2 alarm house fire in here. I don’t know about the benefits that LTFR has ie. vacation, kelly , holidays. Is it pretty much a sure thing that multiple apparatus will be riding short on any given day?
Thum….I’m aware that LTFR doesn’t have 500k sitting around. I was simply asking a question. Think about it from my view. You see 2 brand new stunning apparatus cruising around and then 6 months later the chief is in the paper asking for more funding. Although SAL has cleared up any confusion on the matter (thank you sal) as a tax payer and a resident in the area I think it’s reasonable to ask that question.
I’m sure 500k is on the low side for that quint, and in the ballpark for the engine. You say equipment is cheap and people are expensive. Without the people the equipment is pointless.
It’s true that equipment without people is pointless, but it’s also true that it’s a lot less expensive to buy a new fire truck than to hire more people. That’s the point I was making.
Ideally, there would be, in the words of The Grand PooBah Alan Brunacini, 6 decathlete brain surgeons on every fire truck. In reality, even Austin struggles to put 4 on every unit, and you and I both know that we (yes, I’m an Austin Firefighter too) ain’t decathlete brain surgeons.
The overall point is that LTFR may never be able to afford to put a fourth Firefighter on their units. If that’s the case, at least their understaffed companies are cruising around in groovy new rigs.
I remember when I served a bit as a volunteer fireman out here. Funny how the minute the fire department got tax funding, new people showed up. Nothing against good fireman, but get real, most work a 3 day work week and get paid (very Good pay) for one-third of that while sleeping (that’s why they want the jobs). This department now continues to ask for more and more money. Fancy slick brochures have gone out prior to the voting (where did the money come from?) which I assume my new tax bills will soon reflect was successful. Same slick campaign just when out for the EMS. Probably the same behind the scenes people doing it. There wouldn’t be the need for more money if the department had not purchased 6 times the fire equipment we used to have, four times the locations, 16 times the paid staff, at one time not long ago the 2nd ladder truck of it’s type in all of Texas (for tall buildings). Oh, expect that we do not have any tall buildings in the entire area. 4 stories, not 40. It seems to me someone is being more than a little wasteful. Sure they can log all the calls they make. Problem is many of those calls simply destroy the peace and quiet of the area as they rush a fire engine to a flat tire “emergency”. Perhaps someone should pay attention to all the unnecessary usage of the vehicles and manpower. It never has made sense to me for 5 emergency response vehicles of different types needing to go to any unverified phone call. It seems like they endanger the public a lot more than protect us–due to all the extra emergency equipment screaming down the roads (going nowhere). Fun for them, is expense for us. Of course, I would have liked to be able to verify all this information and more—but there isn’t a method of doing so via the fire department. I wonder why? Perhaps they need more budget to hire more people in order to demonstrate accountability.
Correct me if I’m wrong but aerial ladders are mainly used for reach, not height. Oh, and with growth comes more demand on the public safety agencies, you sound like a city administrator. Here’s some nice reading from “The secret list”:
SEATTLE FIRE KILLS 5:
Take the recent case of Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn who is now taking back his idea of cutting the number of Firefighters who would respond after that horrific apartment fire last weekend that killed 4 kids and an adult. 4 kids and an adult killed in a fire had better have an impact on elected officials. The goal would be to get them to “get it” BEFORE people are killed.
Like Mayors and City Managers everywhere, McGinn initially proposed the idea to save money. He suggested that less Firefighters on the apparatus would work out OK. But then, as the Mayor stated very publicly, “this past weekend gave us a concrete example of the importance of protecting our public safety budget; in light of that event, I am not proposing any reductions to the SFD”
The city is facing a $50 million dollar budget shortfall and like cities everywhere, decisions have to be made.
If the budget is cut, service is absolutely reduced and in some cases risk in increased. Of course, risk doesn’t “have” to be increased. When a city shuts down firehouses or reduces staffing, they can order their Firefighters to NOT take risks and they can advise their citizens to NOT have fires.
That’ll probably work out well, dontcha think? Ask the Seattle Firefighters who did their heroic best to bravely try to save those kids.
Jerry,
If you think that low of the LTFD and fire service in general I would suggest you go and talk to their Chiefs and express your concerns and maybe gain a little more perspective on their operations. You are entitled to your opinion of course and I am sure you have some reasoning for your thoughts. Maybe express those thoughts to the appropriate LTFD authorities and they can in turn give you their opinions.
Jerry, I can tell from your post you don’t have much experience as a firefighter. As others have stated above, I urge you to schedule an appointment to go speak with the fire chief or other officials of that fire department so that you might be able to gain a little inside knowledge of how they operate. While I am not very familiar with this fire department (I work north of the austin area), I have to question your statement about the ladder truck. First, a ladder is not typically utilized for a high rise building. Sorry but the typical use for a ladder is for an elevated stream for defensive operations on low- to mid-rise, apartments, and commercial structures all of which I am confident are within the confines of the LTFR district. They are also used of course for rescues and vertical ventilation for these same structures. Also, I highly doubt it was the second “high-rise” ladder in the state. I would expect it is approximately 100′ which has been in use in every moderately large city for 20 years or more. Houston alone has 37 of these trucks. All three departments I have worked for- from the 2 station city of 10,000 to the 9 station city of 155,000 have had at least one 100′ aerial in their fleet.
Secondly, i believe the stereotypical opinion that the firefighters only work 2-3 days a week so we must not work very hard is a misnomer. If you break it down, on a 24/48 schedule (which probably 90% of all departments in the state use), a firefighter will work an average of 60 hour work weeks. To equate it to your normal 8-5 schedule, we would be working an 8 hour day every day of the year. All 365 days. So don’t think we are getting free money. I average 10 calls a shift and 16 or more is not unheard of. We do not want the jobs so we can sleep at work. I enjoy my job because I enjoy running EMS and fighting fire. Its exciting and challenging. Often I don’t sleep more than 30 minutes to an hour in an entire shift because I am consistently running calls.
I am quite confident in saying that the call volume has significantly gone up in the time since you volunteered there if they have opened 4 new stations. The more population growth and land area, the more demand for emergency services. Its just the nature of the business.
I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and I invite anyone to voice that opinion. Its a constitutional right. However I strongly urge you to take the time to sit down with your neighborhood firefighters and discuss these issues with them with an open mind. You might surprise yourself with what you may hear.
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